(no subject)

[uberreiniger]

In case you didn't know, the kids are at it again.

I have always admired Israel's policy of "fuck with us and we fucking kill you." As much as I think both sides behave stupidly in the internal Israeli/Palestinian struggle, I've always admired how they fight their wars. That said, I'm afraid they might just be playing into Iran's hands here. And I'm scared that if Israel gets sucked into all-out war vs. Lebanon/Iran/Syria we'll wind up having to aid them, thus putting us in the middle of three wars. That's a worst case scenario, of course. I pray it remains speculation and nothing more.

Comments

[solandra.livejournal.com]

Israel scares me. My in-laws scare me more since they're Jews and defend Israel and everything it does. On their last trip there, they brought me back pictures of people walking around with machine guns. Yay! Nice place. I definately like their, "You throw a rock at us, we fucking nuke your ass!" policies as well.

[adonijah74.livejournal.com]

"You throw a rock at us, we fucking nuke your ass!"

Yeah, rocks like the c4 suicide bomber packs they strap to their 14-year old boys and send into Jewish Pizzerias and metro buses, right? Wow, that's quite a disconnect from reality you got going on there.

Israel's policy is to defend themselves against the kind of islamic nazism that dominates the middle-east and seeks to dominate the world.

Israel should be applauded for its action against the bastard hezbollah turban-wearing wife beaters. They do the world a favor by bombing the hell out of their infrastructure.

Yay for Israel! Next up...Syria and Iran.

Sing it with me, "Bomb-Bomb-Bomb, bomb-bomb Iran!"

[solandra.livejournal.com]

Last I heard, what started this bombing was two soldiers being kidnapped. Not killed, but kidnapped. So, yes, I do think bombing various small towns where civilians are is going overboard.

[adonijah74.livejournal.com]

That's what prompted the recent activity, but the conflict goes all the way back to Isaac and Ishmael in the Old Testament. Before they were "muslims" they worshipped the "moon-god" as "allah". Ever since, they have been bent on destroying Israel because they are "infidels" and their Quran refers to them as "apes" and "pigs".

Everytime Israel's enemies have tried to destroy her, she emerges victorious. Even in WWII, where she was almost completely wiped out, she survived.

This is no different, except that the nazis wear turbans and blab a bunch of silly islamic non-sense while they slice off heads with a knife in front of a tv camera.

Kick ass, Israel!

[solandra.livejournal.com]

I have Jews in my family as well as Muslims. Not all of them are fundamentalist assholes like you seem to believe. Not all Muslims deserve to die just because some of them are freaks who kill people over religion. There's Christian freaks and Jewish freaks and freaks from every religion that kill people for stupid reasons. Doesn't mean they all need to die.

[bluewingedcat.livejournal.com]

Actually, you should do better research. In the beginning of Islam, "Infidel" meant "person not of the Book." They held a small amount of respect for Judaism, since it's followers were "on the right step" as it were by following a book; just not the *right* book. As with most major religions, fundamentalists and greedy evil men got into power and fucked it up.

Oh, an Israel didn't exist as a recognized nation until *after* WW2.

GG.

[uberreiniger.livejournal.com]

Err... last comment was me, not Mel. Didn't see she'd logged in while I was away from the comp.

To surmise what I said, Israel are warning Lebanese civilians to get out of areas that may be targetted, (Israeli civilians never get any such warnings from bombers.) And if the airport they hit was in use for military operations as they say, then it was a legal target. And rescuing your own guys is never wrong, not when the groups who take them have demonstrated their willingness to kill hostages in the past.

[ysathora.livejournal.com]

It's easy to wish for death when you don't have to be in the middle of it. I'm starting to wonder if you have a touch of the sociopath.

[solandra.livejournal.com]

Heh yeah.. Screw innocent bystanders and all the people who don't agree with the terrorists! Let's paint all Muslims with the same brush because of something that the Bible says! KILL EM ALL AND LET GOD SORT EM OUT!!

Oh shit.. what if there is not God? Hmm. Oh well. Let's not think about that and kill em all anyway!

[rustie25.livejournal.com]

I am having a hard time telling who is fighting who. First I thought it was Isreal against the Hezbollah. But where does the lebanese government end and the hezbollah begin, or are they the same thing, or what? And where do Syria and Iran come into this? I need a crash course that isn't offered by the news. I really dislike the Middle East. Obviously not all the people who live there, and not any one country. I just don't understand how people can spend SO MANY centuries fighting the same war. And because of religious reasons. Or is it mroe than that now? Or can it all be traced back to religious reasons? I am confused.

I say the U.S. just backs out completely and let them figure it out. All that happens when we get involved is that more people hate us. I know, there are reasons I don't understand that mean we need to help. It is just frustrating and scary, and my prayers go out to all the innocent people living in those countries who just want to live peacefully.

[kakita-shisumo.livejournal.com]

Okay, rough scorecard.

First shot (more or less) fired by Hezbollah. (Spellings vary, of course, since it's an Arabic word.) Hezbollah is a Shi'ite fundamentalist group and militant organization. The U.S. lists them as a terrorist organization. Hezbollah has a political wing that is a part of the Lebanese government; Hezbollah holds two Cabinet positions and a couple dozen Parliament seats. Hezbollah in the only remaining armed force outside the direct control of the Lebanese government in Lebanon; they have refused to comply with U.N. Resolution 1559, which mandated a ceasefire and the withdrawal of Israeli troops from southern Lebanon. Israel withdrew in 2001, but Hezbollah claims that part of Israel-controlled Syria is actually Lebanon, and thus claims it has the right to continue fighting. Hezbollah has also been a frequent ally of Palestinian groups in Israel and the occupied territories, frequently supplying arms and other support to both the PLO and Hamas.

Hezbollah lauched a raid into Israeli territory Wednesday, killing 8 IDF (Israeli Defense Force) soldiers and kidnapping two more. Israel, of course, is the state created by U.N. resolution in the aftermath of World War II to give the Jewish people a homeland, more-or-less as a way of trying to make up for the Holocaust. (It followed the line of the 1917 Balfour Declaration, but Britain had been trying pretty hard not to actually follow through with the Declaration until then.) The Arab tribes in the area saw the British as interlopers, and when the Jews began to settle in the area west of the Jordan River, then called Palestine, the same feeling was extended to them. The British pulled out in 1947 and the U.N. created Israel in 1948, attempting to partition the area into Arab and Jewish settlements. The Arab nations refused, and Israel was attacked immediately. That pretty much set the tone for Arab-Israeli relations for the remainder of the century and on.

(Incidentally, though the Arab-Israeli conflict has caused a number of rabble-rousers on both sides to bring up historical grudges, in point of fact the original conflict was more national than religious or ethnic. The local Arabs quite frankly didn't like foreign rule. The truth is, throughout much of history, Muslim-Jewish relations were much better than Muslim-Christian or Jewish-Christian relations.)

Israel then counterattacked against Lebanon, holding it responsible for the behavior of Hezbollah and claiming that the safety of the Israeli soldiers was in the hands of the Lebanese government. Lebanon was granted independence during WWII, but for much of its existence it has been the plaything of local powers. Lebanon went through a 15-year civil war, from 1975-90, in the aftermath of the Six Day War. Palestinian refugees and their Shi'ite allies on one side and native socialist and Christian groups on the other, the war involved Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Iran and, for a time, even the U.S. (Does anyone remember the Beirut army barracks attack?) For much of its existence, the PLO was headquartered in Lebanon, and was a significant force in the internal strife. The war finally ended in 1990, but Syria continued to have a significant military presence (read: they were basically in control) until last year. The Lebanese government has been attempting to pull itself together since then, but is not really able to do much in terms of controlling its people.

[kakita-shisumo.livejournal.com]

One of the first places Israel struck was at a Lebanese airport believed to be a transfer point for arms between Syria and Hezbollah. Syria, independent about the same time as Lebanon, has for most of its modern history been an unstable country run by a sequence of dictators. Most of them were power-first, religion-second types, but there has been a strong sense of connection between the Syrians and the Palestinians since the creation of Israel, not least because a large number of Palestinian refugees fled to Syria after the 1948 war. Syria was a major ally of the Muslim/Palestinian forces in the Lebanese civil war, and remains one of the primary financial backers of Hezbollah.

Claims have also been made that the airport was a transfer site for Iranian arms to Hezbollah, and the missiles currently being launched by Hezbollah into Israel were purchased from Iran in the early part of this decade. Iran - or Persia, as the locals call it - has been under the control of an exceptionally fundamental Islamist government since the revolution of 1979, which overthrew a CIA-backed Shah and created a country based heavily on sharia law, laws drawn directly from the Qu'ran. As a result, Iran's policies since that time have been highly anti-American and highly pro-Islam, and opposition to Israel fulfills both requirements. Iran's Shi'ite government has traditionally been very supportive of Hezbollah, though recent years have seen Iran's gradual eclipse by Syria as prime backer.

This is not the first time Hezbollah has attempted to kidnap Israeli soldiers in order to force a prisoner exchange, but Israel's response has been significantly larger than history would have suggested. In 2000, Hezbollah successfully negotiatied the release of 30 Lebanese prisoners held by the Israelis in exchange for the release of 2 captured IDF members. They attempted another raid for prisoners last November; the raid failed, and Israel lauched a series of targeted strikes against Hezbollah emplacements. The counteroffensive ended when Lebanon called for a cease-fire.

[rustie25.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I feel a little less ignorant now. And you did a nice job of seeming somewhat unbiased in the giving of information. :)

[kakita-shisumo.livejournal.com]

That's cause I am mostly unbiased. I think they're both completely out of line. Terrorist group or otherwise, you're on my shit list if you deliberately target civilian populations and infrastructure, and that's what both sides are doing.

What is needed now, and what we won't get, of course, is strong leadership on the part of the President to arrange a ceasefire before Israel decides to include Syria and/or Iran in its ire and that regional war that's been threatening ever since the invasion of Iraq finally explodes.

Frankly, I just want to see them stop shooting at each other. Too many innocent Israelis and Lebanese are dying as it is.

[uberreiniger.livejournal.com]

Now if only we could get people to consistently spell it "Hezbollah" rather than "Hizbollah."

[kakita-shisumo.livejournal.com]

Eh, it's a made-up spelling no matter how you go. But I was listening to a native Lebanese speaker say it on NPR yesterday, and it sounded more "e" than "i" to me, so that's what I went with. YMMV.

[freyjas-child.livejournal.com]

That bothers me as well>.< Especially since we have such a Bush minded Prime Minister right now. I can see him pressing the Canadian military to help as well. It always seems to happen when the US gets involved somewhere. Even if only for a short period of time.

It's bad enough my little brothers in the Navy and is about to ship off to the gulf mid Sept for lord knows how long:/

[stitchedsutures.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean. I freaked out after 9/11 because my little brother had JUST finished his basic training. I figured that he would be shipped out rather quickly, assuming that we were going to war almost immediately after such an event. We waited a few years, but several of his friends have been shipped out.

At least I don't think he will be sent out now at this point for a few reasons. I guess that's a good thing.

[adonijah74.livejournal.com]

I have 4 friends currently in Iraq, two of those I used to play in a band with. All of them knew what they were signing up for and serve their country with honor and pride.

My brother-in-law is also in the Navy and with this new development, he may see action now.

I'm proud of all 5 now serving in the armed forces. I hope they kick much ass!

[solandra.livejournal.com]

Funny. Knowing people who served in the armed forces and got out only to be treated like crap after "serving our noble country" (LMAO!!), your friends and family might feel differently when they're away from all the brainwashing and are being gyped out of their pay and medical care.

Oh, but I'm sure they can delude themselves like you and just watch Fox News and be told things to make them feel safe and not really look at what is going on.

AMERICA! FUCK YEAH! COMING AGAIN TO SAVE THE MOTHER FUCKIN' DAY, YEAH!

[solandra.livejournal.com]

From my friend, an ex-soldier who served in Bosnia:

" reading over that post again about israel and lebanon / palastine..those people have no idea what they are talking about. they view war as romantic or heroic..it is nothing of the sort. shooting enemies to your country isnt all there is to war. there are civilians, women and children. i still have nightmares about bosnia, over 5 years after i had been there. imagine giving a starving child your lunch one day, because in all good conscience you cant eat in front of them. then, a week later, you have to dig up their body. it was mental toture over there, and it took it's toll. we had a pretty high suicide rate while there, and when we got back.

because of the shit over there is actually why i get disability, and why i've spent time under an armed guard in a suicide ward...there is nothing romantic about that shit

btw, as we were talking about religion and christianity before: the war in bosnia was fought over religion, between christians and muslims. we werent there to help the christians, though, we were there to protect the muslims from the christians. all those horrors and atrocities that happened, it was the christians doing them, not the "radical fundamentalist" muslims"

Oh, but he must just be a liberal hippie and not have ANY idea what it's all about. People with agendas, who make war to make money and use the poor in our country to go out and fight, REALLY know what they're talking about.

[rustie25.livejournal.com]

All this talk about the wars in the Middle East just make me thankful that I live where I live. I don't even have to worry about drive bys or anything, let alone war in my town. I don't have to worry about some military or police official raping or hurting me because they can. I don't have to worry about violence against me because of my religion. Every time I read about the horrible events in the other parts of the world (africa, middle east etc) I pray for peace and am thankful I dont have to worry about myself or my family living through these things.
There is nothing romantic about war. I spent 2 years in counseling because I found my husband after he committed suicide. I cannot imagine the pain and suffering any military person must feel if they have to kill someone, even someone that is the "enemy", or if they get to know people (like that starving child) only to find them dead later. Or to be surrounded by that type of violence and death every day. Soldiers deserve our respect, gratitude and understanding.

[uberreiniger.livejournal.com]

Soldiers deserve our respect, gratitude and understanding.

Most of them would just settle for some decent health benefits. They can't even get that.

[donkeyjon.livejournal.com]

Israel, despite any of the differing views we may have of them, understands what a government and a military are for. A military exists solely for one purpose: to extend the control of its government's people and ideology over those who wish to change or eradicate said ideology.

Any other use of a military is a misuse, just as our current mission in Iraq is a misuse of our military forces. The CONQUEST of Iraq was a perfect use of them, but unfortunately America cannot stomach what is required to perform such a conquest.

From a purely fascist viewpoint (i.e. a viewpoint without a care for human life or feeling, a viewpoint that only looks at the conflict from a profit and loss scenario), the Israeli government and military have been surprisingly lax in their duties of late. This recent ramp-up is merely them remembering what is required.

This response isn't going to make me popular, is it? :)

[uberreiniger.livejournal.com]

Everything you say is true. I do not believe that loss of innocent life is good, but that it is unavoidable in war. On one hand, it is good that the world wants to play by rules in war to minimize civilian casualities. On another hand, it is crippling that any loss of civilian life or property, however unintentional, is seen as a violation of these rules. It is America's willingness to play to this guilt manipulation which makes us lack the stomach for the conquest.