I think therefore I am. Depends on what your definition of "think" and "am" are.

[uberreiniger]

While reading tvtropes.org I came across the information that in Hebrew religious thought angels are not considered to be alive. (Specific quote is under the "religions and mythology" tab.) Can any of the Jewish folks reading this verify or clarify this stance? It's kind of mindboggling given all that angels are capable of. How can something walk, talk, sing, wrestle, cause disease, slaughter entire armies, induce* sleep, treat wounds, teach a man how to cook a fish, and imbue livestock with the power of speech and STILL not be considered alive? Is it because they are, as some say, mere extensions of God's will, lacking self-awareness? Plants, bacteria, and fungus are not self-aware yet they are certainly alive.

After some mental gymnastics I won't bore you with, it all got me wondering which is more "alive," a robot or a vampire? Think about it. They are the same. Neither requires oxygen or sleep. Vampires require blood, robots require power. When either starts to run out they became slower and less effective until they deactivate or go into a prolonged sleep, either of which resemble death from a biological standpoint. But put a fresh power cell in the robot or more blood in the vampire and they are ready to go again. None of this answers the truly important question: in a fight between them, who would win?

*This incomplete list of powers is taken solely from the Bible. Keep in mind that it's a book where angels are barely even mentioned. How knows what else angels can do? They do more without being alive than most people do in a lifetime. Go cure cancer you lazy, ungrateful living thing!

Comments

[dungeonwriter.livejournal.com]

What is the definition of alive?

An angel can't die. It wasn't born, but created. It can't be sick. It can't procreate. He doesn't need to eat or drink. He doesn't have sex. He has no free will. He has no gender, but is masculine because it's the default gender.

So yeah, it's not alive the way we are. They are manifestation of God's will.

[adele87.livejournal.com]

agreed

[dungeonwriter.livejournal.com]

Rambam (Maimonides) says

"For all forces are angels! How blind, how perniciously blind are the naive?! If you told someone who purports to be a sage of Israel that the Deity sends an angel who enters a woman's womb and there forms an embryo, he would think this a miracle and accept it as a mark of the majesty and power of the Deity - despite the fact that he believes an angel to be a body of fire one third the size of the entire world. All this, he thinks, is possible for God. But if you tell him that God placed in the sperm the power of forming and demarcating these organs, and that this is the angel, or that all forms are produced by the Active Intellect - that here is the angel, the "vice-regent of the world" constantly mentioned by the sages - then he will recoil.
For he {the naive person} does not understand that the true majesty and power are in the bringing into being of forces which are active in a thing although they cannot be perceived by the senses....Thus the Sages reveal to the aware that the imaginative faculty is also called an angel; and the mind is called a cherub. How beautiful this will appear to the sophisticated mind - and how disturbing to the primitive."

He's an extreme view though.

[adele87.livejournal.com]

My friend, I was an Orthodox Jew for 15 years. Believe me, I am well aware of what Maimonides says. :-p

[dungeonwriter.livejournal.com]

I apologize, my dear sister in Yahadut!!!

[adele87.livejournal.com]

No apology needed. Happy Chanakkah.

[dungeonwriter.livejournal.com]

Thanks, chag samayach to you too.

I'm always honored to meet a fellow Jew.

[adele87.livejournal.com]

Thanks. I actually left Orthodoxy when I was about 16 for Conservative Judaism, and discovered Reform Judaism in college.

By then, my attention and faith really turned to the church, and one thing led to another, and was baptized. I still have a lot of affection for the tradition, though.

Certain theological beliefs in Christianity I found meaningful, and found more of a home there.

But, if you still feel comfy calling me a Jew, then that's fine too.

[dungeonwriter.livejournal.com]

Ohhh...I'm sorry! I should call you a Christian, it's only right to honor the choice you made!

[adele87.livejournal.com]

Oh no worries -- I think more Christians should learn from Judaism.

[para-xylene.livejournal.com]

I think more Christians should learn from Judaism.

THIS!!! Yes! I'm Christian and I am constantly astounded how very little my brethren know about their roots. Without our Judaic roots nothing about Christianity has any bearing or weight.

[uberreiniger.livejournal.com]

If you believe that angels can fall then they do have free will but get shafted really hard for using it. I'm aware that Judaism doesn't have that notion though.

Things like sickness, death, and nourishment are all conditions of mortality. It's interesting that under the definition Jews use, traits associated with immortality - everlasting life - move something further away from the state of being "alive."

[dungeonwriter.livejournal.com]

Well, if it can't die, was never born, how can it live?

[uberreiniger.livejournal.com]

Is God, by the same definition, not alive?

Angels being extensions of the will of God makes Satan even more problematic than usual even just using the Old Testament definition. He convinces God to test Job... So is God talking to himself? Is God schizophrenic? I'm not being flip, it's genuinely hard to get one's mind around.

I remember reading somewhere Satan described as "the shadow in the mind of God." Maybe that definition bears further exploration.

[sravakavarn.livejournal.com]

"
If you believe that angels can fall then they do have free will but get shafted really hard for using it. I'm aware that Judaism doesn't have that notion though."

Yep. That's part of why the Jews reject that theology--or, let me be clear, why Rabbic and Pharisiac Jews reject that theology, I don't know the essene or Karaite opinion on the topic.

[batchix.livejournal.com]

I'm sure that those who believe an angel isn't "alive" probably wouldn't think a robot is alive either.


I think the idea of alive is tangled up in the idea of self awareness. A plant can't exactly communicate, but it does respond to emotion. Tests have shown that a plant constantly yelled at will wilt, and one spoken affectionately will thrive- even when they are both given the exact same light, soil and water.

Then you could continue on with the question of who or what has a soul? Does a plant? does a pet? I think a pet does, and maybe trees that can live for hundreds of years... but what about the stupid ficus tree on the balcony that may or may not be dying?

When you think about it... in a pitched battle between Edward Cullen and Optimus Prime my money's always going to be on Prime.

[dungeonwriter.livejournal.com]

Optimus Prime for the win.

[uberreiniger.livejournal.com]

And it's not absurd for Optimus Prime to sparkle. He is made of shiny metal.

[catlin.livejournal.com]

If we wonder about Alive and souls, and compare it to plants, does that mean that if we eat grain we are aborting future living creatures?

[adele87.livejournal.com]

nice!

[sravakavarn.livejournal.com]

Angels are not alive because they were not born, and thus cannot die. I was going to quote Ramban, but I have decided that is already done. I don't know if the Talmud comments on this directly.

[uberreiniger.livejournal.com]

So in Hebrew theology "alive" is inseperable from "mortal?"

[sravakavarn.livejournal.com]

More or less, yes.

[para-xylene.livejournal.com]

I love you for posing these questions! Yay for thinking! I wish I was not at work because I want to join this great conversation.

For the most part, I agree with Dungeonwriter's first post. You have to define the idea of what is alive. The problem may not be if an angel is alive or not, but the idea of what constitutes a living creature. Does that make sense? That is, if you find what prevents an angel from fitting the criteria, then you may discover what you don't like about the definition of a living creature.

[uberreiniger.livejournal.com]

That's what I was getting at with the post, what the definition of "alive" has to be in order to arrive at the definition of "angel".

For all the powers angels display in their few scriptural appearances, one power they never display is independent action. They are never shown doing anything they were not told to do by God. If an ingredient of being alive is capability of independent action without instruction then angels are at a disadvantage.

[lucretiasheart.livejournal.com]

LOL-cakes!

Um-- the vampire is the most alive because the body still houses the essence of animation or "soul" despite those who say vampires don't have a soul. Zombies don't have a soul. So, having the essence of life trapped in their undying body gives them a wee step more towards the "life" category. Also, the biology of it-- which most think of as life as opposed to mere parts put together, given energy, and programmed.

Who would win the fight? Depends upon the age/power of vampire and on the robot's size and accessories of course!

[uberreiniger.livejournal.com]

For simplicity's sake assume a vampire and robot of equal physical stature. Unless it's the above mentioned Optimus Prime who always gets a free pass where stomping vampires is concerned!

[lucretiasheart.livejournal.com]

I shall assume the vampire would win due to his preternatural swiftness and ability to think creatively, which I'm going to further assume is an ability still unmatched by even the best fantasy robots.

.... although I'm sure the vampire would break a fang in the process.

[uberreiniger.livejournal.com]

Well he would definitely beat the Terminator. Because not only does the Terminator have blood, but vampires are emo and the Terminator "undastands now vy you cry, but it is somethink I could neva do."

[lucretiasheart.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the vampire would beat the OLD Terminator-- but what about the T3000 "liquid metal" one? That would be a closer match I think. No blood to drink... shapeshifting abilities... The robot would slide through bars, then the vamp would change to smoke.... Tough call.